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Great video, isn’t the first one I’ve seen about the region, probably won’t be the last. I always love how in every one of these type of videos if you go and talk to regular people everyone is pretty nice no matter what country you are in. Kinda just proves the the majority of the world’s problems are not the construction of the average person, but a select few individuals who make the world a challenging place to live in.
Anyways, videos like these make me want to live or at the very least visit China so very very badly! I’d need way more time than I have because China is HUGE!
no, i think it’s
Increasingly hard to tell if someone is trolling or honestly doesn’t understand what is/isn’t a decent source.
I guess the silver lining is that these sorts of conversations are all for the benefit of people lurking, anyway.
ITT: juicy struggle session.
today though, i will just be 🍿
No one image or video is going to give you a full picture of what a place or it’s population is like
To the defense of China, there are other videos. There is the assessment of dozens of Muslim countries , who sent representatives to Xinjiang.
On the accusation, you have the report by Adrian Zenz a CIA-funded religious fanatic who interviewed 8 people and used colorful extrapolations and interpretations to concoct a genocide narrative.
China is allegedly genociding a Muslim people, but almost no Muslim country buys that narrative. To the defense of those Muslims, come the US government – the entity that kills Muslim people with no hesitation, and also has “destroy China” as its top foreign policy priority. Give me a break.
Let me guess: all those dozens of Muslim brown-people countries are being tricked by China, but white countries are immune to deception.
Removed by mod
Click bait
Brain dead
it’s a nice video. Xinjiang is beautiful and his Mandarin is impressive, but I don’t get the title.
The popular tourist spots and common light topics of conversation are exactly the China and Xinjiang they want you to see.
This is the Xinjiang they don’t want you to see:
This image is over 3 years old mate. The last of these centers was closed in 2023. You got anything that isn’t horrendously out of date or are you still scraping the barrel of the media produced by the reeducation program that only lasted 1 year before all centers were closed?
EDIT: Lmaoooo source is Adrian Zenz’s twitter account lololololol it’s genuinely fucking hilarious that it takes 2 seconds to discover CIA funded propaganda is the primary source of your brainworms
Anyway, the facilities that made up this program completely deradicalised a region that was receiving islamic extremist terrorist attacks every week which would kill 10-30 people in each attack. They achieved this without killing one single person and without permanently imprisoning anyone. The western approach would have been to bomb them into oblivion. Which approach is obviously better?
you support the concentration camps?
why do you think the age of the pictures matter more than the concentration camps?
you support the concentration camps?
Do concentration camps let people go home on the weekend? You fucking idiot. The education centers (which no longer exist as they were only used for 1 year to address the problem) were a 5 day weekday program. Attendees returned home on weekends.
Stop getting your information from the fucking cia’s literal propaganda outlets dipshit.
this information is from uyghurs and the Chinese and xinjiang government.
The “Xinjiang government” is the Communist Party dipshit. Xinjiang is in China.
These pictures are from the CIA. They were posted by Adrian Zenz, he is extremely well known to us. He is a lunatic fundamentalist crank who believes he was placed on this earth by god to fight China. He works for Victims of Communism, which is a CIA outlet that does not hide the fact it was founded by and is funded by the CIA.
Do you have a literacy problem? I have already explained this once already. Did you not understand this information the first time I stated it?
“I can’t show you though, my source goes to a different school”
eh, no worries.
The volume of comments you’re posting indicates you actually do have some worries about this, specifically you’re worried that nobody is buying your state department bullshit, and you should be
Because the “concentration camp” doesn’t still exist
Do you think the picture matters more than the actual existence of them?
The picture exists, so the camps must still exist. Unlike Guantanamo which ceases to exist the second I stop thinking about it.
The picture proving the existence of uyghur concentration camps?
not more important than the camps themselves, but an important piece of evidence.
Are you trolling? We have asked repeatedly and you provide zero arguments that the picture is from a spooky concentration camp. Produce the evidence that conditions in that prison are worse than USian prisons.
Oh, and the US incarcerates 6 times as many people per capita as China, and institutes wideapread slave prison labor. Do you boycott the US?
Is it more important than all of the evidence that shows they no longer exist and were greatly exaggerated (most charitable description).
Follow up, how does this compare to all the evidence that America is currently doing what they accused China of doing with thoroughly debunked claims.
I strongly support putting you in a re-education facility
why do you think the age of the pictures matter more than the concentration camps?
Are you having a hard time reading?
This image is over 3 years old mate.
2025 - 3 = 2022
The last of these centers was closed in 2023.
2025 > 2023
Even if we take your assertion at face value (which we shouldn’t since it is sourced from Adrian Zenz) then these “camps” are closed.
Do you have this much heat for American Concentration Camps?
I don’t think that the fact that some of the camps are closing is as important as the fact that the ccp uses concentration camps to control their population.
the country of origin is not the determining factor on how much a problem detention camps are.
Can you name a country that does not use prisons (aka. ‘concentration camps’)?
prisons are very different from concentration camps.
this was addressed earlier, all countries use prisons in some form are another.
And how have you determined that that photo is from a concentration camp and not a prison?
Hey I know all the users asking for sources is really overwhelming and you said you knew some people there. A Chinese user visited the re-education camps and what he saw shocked me, you can read about it here: https://hexbear.net/post/4764089 and here: https://hexbear.net/post/4764090 I’m curious if your friends could verify this
actually, they’re mostly asking for the same thing over and over, so it’s not too tricky.
those are some really long threads, which part do you want verified?
When you have a chance please read them it really is a harrowing experience, if you could please ask your friends to verify the following excerpt:
They sat back down and kind of sulked for a moment. I sat next to them, asking if they were hurt at all, and they mentioned they showed my partner the piece of paper that the son of the mother we visited with the text “黄雪” written in red ink. This definitely meant that the family was being interrogated in this same facility. My worst fears were true; we had some part in pushing this family back into the trouble they had just escaped.
“I don’t think it’s our fault,” my partner said, and wiped some tears off my cheek. I didn’t even feel the tears, as I was numb from the shock.
“They told me what 黄雪 translates to. It means Yellow Snow.”
“They told me how Yellow Snow is a folk legend in the prison.” I looked up at my partner, asking why they told them this. “I don’t know, maybe to scare me, or just to educate me on what the paper meant. 黄雪 was a man who was out doing manual labor on a cold morning and asked the guards for the toilet. The guards ignored his request and told him to get back to work. Half an hour passed, the man struggling to continue. He was shaking, not just from the cold but from bladder contractions. Eventually he stopped working and decided to urinate in front of everyone. After relieving himself, the guards took him. He was never heard from or seen again.”
I was still confused as to why they told my partner this. It still didn’t sit well with me. I laid my head on my partner’s lap and tried to sleep.
Awoken by an alarm and rhythmic banging on walls, my partner stood up. “The gate, it’s open!” Was this our opportunity to leave?
As soon as the cacophony began, a silence filled the prison. There were no guards within the area. I was hesitant to leave but my partner wasn’t. They slowly crept out of the cell as I repeatedly whispered to get back in. Realizing they were leaving, I began to follow. Upon hearing a thud and a yelp, I rushed back inside, but then I heard it again. The exact same sequence of thuds and yelps. At this point I remembered the “Morse code” that the mother had told us about; the “secret language” used by the prisoners to pay respects to the dead, stomp yelping their obituaries at midnight.
The stomps and yelps were distinctly clear and using my memory from my limited knowledge of the Chinese Morse code I decoded the message.
6663 5887…
Run.
Run? Was this a sign telling us to leave?
I told my partner. They looked at me and asked how I knew, and I told them to remember the “secret language.” We sprinted down every hallway, seeing no guards throughout the entirety of the cell block. When we left the detention area, we encountered several uniformed guards in a lobby area by the door to the main yard where people in jumpsuits were idly standing. I assumed this was the yard area of the prison. We decided to make a break for it, the guards yelling after us, “Wait! Stop!”
We refused to heed their commands. On the other side of the fence was freedom. I refused to be kept prisoner in this death camp. I was not going to let myself or my partner be kept hostage, to become a shell of a person. We were not going to become martyrs like Yellow Snow. I screamed at my partner to begin climbing and took my shirt off to throw over the barbed wire so we could get around it. I began my ascent, the guards following.
“Stop right there! You forgot your wallet!”
My wallet? What did they mean?
“Stop! You don’t have to do this! You’re free to go!”
I looked down at them, then to my partner. We remained on the fence for a while, weighing our options. My shirt was already on the barbed wire; if we didn’t believe them, our way out was right there. We stayed on the fence for a few minutes as everyone in the yard stared at us.
“Shu, let’s just see what happens.”
My partner began to climb down and I followed. The guards came up to us, handing us our belongings and unlocking the innermost gate. “You should go,” they said.
Before I did, I looked back at the people in jumpsuits. Full families grouped together, wearing matching jumpsuits. I couldn’t help but feel bad for them as they stared back at us with sullen eyes. I was free to go, but they had to stay. It tore me up inside. I had to give them some kind of hope. Before I left, I turned to them and peed my pants in full view of everyone. Their discomfort became my own. Their looks turned from disgust to acceptance as I did my best to stomp and yelp out the Chinese Commercial Code for “Stay strong.”
I hoped they would.
which part?
the legend of the resistance fighter known as 黄雪, the existence of Chinese Morse Commercial Code as well as it’s extensive use in the re-education camps
i have so many facts to distribute that I’ll have to forgo the legends for now.
wow i’m just shocked that you are willing to ignore the heroism of 黄雪 who has done more activism in real life than we will ever do
bitofarambler@crazypeople online …
at least no argument there …
Yeah, literally no other country in the world imprisons people. How dare.
actually, literally all other countries imprison people.
Detainment is a much wider problem than you think.
is this a bit instance? crazypeople.online? fr?
it seems like a real instance, if that’s what you’re asking?
they explain their name in the main instance thread.
I’m not asking anything, i’m pointing out what i suspect you are up to. no shade, i think you’re doing a great job 'cept maybe a little too on the nose.
I made a fairly innocuous comment and a lot of people got excited about that comment.
I lived in China for a while, so I’m happy to talk about it.
fairly innocuous comment
go get em champ
wow. i learn something new every day
Yes, I was being sarcastic. Sorry, I thought that was obvious.
The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
Background
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
In the aftermath of the Cold War, several factors contributed to a resurgence of separatist sentiment among Uyghur nationalists in Xinjiang. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. Some high-profile examples include:
- Ürümqi bombings (2014): SUVs were driven into a busy street market in Ürümqi, the capital of Xinjiang. Up to a dozen explosives were thrown at shoppers from the windows of the SUVs. The SUVs crashed into shoppers, then collided with each other and exploded. 43 people were killed and more than 90 wounded.
- Kunming train station attack (2014): A group of 8 knife-wielding Uyghur separatists attacked passengers in the Kunming Railway Station in Kunming, Yunnan, China, killing 31 people, and wounding 143 others. The attackers pulled out long-bladed knives and stabbed and slashed passengers at random.
- Tiananmen Square attack (2013): A car ran over pedestrians and crashed in Tiananmen Square in Beijing, in a terrorist suicide attack. Five people died in the incident; three inside the vehicle and two others nearby. An additional 38 people were injured.
- Kashgar attack (2013): A group of Uyghur militants attacked a police station and government offices in Kashgar, killing 15 people and injuring more than 40 others.
- Kashgar attack (2011): Two Uyghur men hijacked a truck, killed its driver, and drove into a crowd of pedestrians. They got out of the truck and stabbed six people to death and injured 27 others.
- Ürümqi riots (2009): Ethnic riots erupted in Ürümqi. They began as a protest, but escalated into violent attacks that mainly targeted Han people. A total of 197 people died, most of whom were Han people or non-Muslim minorities, with 1,721 others injured and many vehicles and buildings destroyed.
- Kashgar attack (2008): Two men drove a truck into a group of approximately 70 jogging police officers, and proceeded to attack them with grenades and machetes, resulting in the death of sixteen officers.
In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a “Strike Hard” campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labor, began to emerge.
The Material Conditions Necessary for Terrorism and Extremism
As materialists, we understand that terrorists don’t magically appear out of thin air. There are material reasons for people resorting to such extreme measures. In order to combat the threat of rising extremism, these reasons must be indentified and resolved. One of the main causes is economic marginalization. When people are economically disadvantaged or excluded from mainstream economic activity, they may be more likely to turn to extremism as a way to address their grievances and gain a sense of purpose. Generally speaking, people who feel like they have a bright future do not resort to terrorism. It is only when people feel hopeless or trapped that they resort to such measures.
If the issue is that the Uyghurs were disenfranchised, and that is the reason they were susceptible to religious fundamentalism and resorting to terrorism, then surely the solution is to enfranchise them to remove that material condition. This is what the Strike Hard campaign ultimately sought to accomplish.
Counterpoints
There is only flimsy evidence for the most egregious of the allegations being made about what China is doing in Xinjiang, it should be an easy matter to dismiss. Normally, the burden of evidence lies with the party making the claims. However, Western media is happy to spread rumours and present the allegations as having merit because it serves America’s imperialist interests. Additionally, given the severity of the allegations and the gravity of the crimes China is being accused of, this issue has been taken very seriously by the international community, especially the international Muslim community.
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States in 2019 which:
- Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat’s delegation upon invitation from the People’s Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People’s Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People’s Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter (A/HRC/41/G/17) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
…separatism and religious extremism has caused enormous damage to people of all ethnic groups in Xinjiang, which has seriously infringed upon human rights, including right to life, health and development. Faced with the grave challenge of terrorism and extremism, China has undertaken a series of counter-terrorism and deradicalization measures in Xinjiang, including setting up vocational education and training centers. Now safety and security has returned to Xinjiang and the fundamental human rights of people of all ethnic groups there are safeguarded. The past three consecutive years has seen not a single terrorist attack in Xinjiang and people there enjoy a stronger sense of happiness, fulfillment and security. We note with appreciation that human rights are respected and protected in China in the process of counter-terrorism and deradicalization.
We appreciate China’s commitment to openness and transparency. China has invited a number of diplomats, international organizations officials and journalist to Xinjiang to witness the progress of the human rights cause and the outcomes of counter-terrorism and deradicalization there. What they saw and heard in Xinjiang completely contradicted what was reported in the media. We call on relevant countries to refrain from employing unfounded charges against China based on unconfirmed information before they visit Xinjiang.
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, “The review did not substantiate the allegations.” (See: World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur’s amounts to a crime against humanity, it’s still not genocide. Even the U.S. State Department’s legal experts admit as much:
The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China | Colum Lynch, Foreign Policy. (2021)
A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror
China is not the only country to have faced faced a challenge of this nature. The United States, in the wake of “9/11”, saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in March 2003, which was justified by the Bush administration as a response to Iraq’s alleged possession of weapons of mass destruction and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
A former commander of NATO’s forces in Europe, [retired General Wesley] Clark claims he met a senior military officer in Washington in November 2001 who told him the Bush administration was planning to attack Iraq first before taking action against Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia and Sudan…
Clark says after the 11 September 2001 attacks, many Bush administration officials seemed determined to move against Iraq, invoking the idea of state sponsorship of terrorism, “even though there was no evidence of Iraqi sponsorship of 9/11 whatsoever”…
He also condemns George Bush’s notorious Axis of Evil speech made during his 2002 State of the Union address. “There were no obvious connections between Iraq, Iran, and North Korea,” says Clark…
Instead, Clark points the finger at what he calls “the real sources of terrorists – US allies in the region like Egypt, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia”.
Clark blames Egypt’s “repressive policies”, Pakistan’s “corruption and poverty, as well as Saudi Arabia’s “radical ideology and direct funding” for creating a pool of angry young men who became “terrorists”.
US ‘plans to attack seven Muslim states’ | Al Jazeera (2003)
According to a report by Brown University’s Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million.
The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the “Military-Aged Male” which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: ‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes)
In summary:
- The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries regardless of their actual connection to the attackers, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
- China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to actually charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the Hague Invasion Act.
#Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?
Let’s review some of the people and organizations involved in strongly promoting this narrative.
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is “led by God” on a “mission” against China has driven much of the narrative. His anti-Communist and anti-China stances influence his work and makes him selective in his use of data. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. He also ignores the broader historical and political context of the situation in Xinjiang, such as the history of separatist movements and terrorism in the region.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China’s treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes “genocide” and “crimes against humanity.” Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
Why is this narrative being promoted?
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. In this case, there is a compelling material reason for the US the promote a narrative of a genocide occurring in Xinjiang.
The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. The project has been described as a new Silk Road, connecting China with its neighboring countries and expanding trade and economic ties with the rest of the world.
The BRI includes plans for major infrastructure projects in Xinjiang. These projects aim to improve connectivity and facilitate trade between China and countries in Central Asia and beyond. The Xinjiang region is critical part of the Belt.
For the United States, the BRI is a threat to its economic and political dominance. For one, the BRI could undermine US efforts to promote “free trade” agreements, which have often been used to lock in economic reforms and policies that benefit American corporations. The BRI also threatens to undermine US influence in key regions of the world, particularly in Asia and Africa, by providing countries with an alternative source of financing and investment that is not tied to US-led institutions like the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.
Moreover, the BRI could help to shift the global balance of power away from the United States and towards China. By expanding its economic influence and deepening its ties with other countries, China could emerge as a more formidable competitor to the United States in the global arena.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China’s reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China’s economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
Additional Resources
Video Essays:
- What’s daily life like for Uyghurs? A talk with Uyghur influencer Sabira Samat and Daniel Dumbrill. | Li Jingjing (2021)
- Cutting Through the BS on Xinjiang: Uyghur Genocide or Vocational Training? | BadEmpanada (2021)
- Discussing The Xinjiang/Uyghur “Genocide” With Bay Area 415 | Daniel Dumbrill (2020)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
- Egyptian media delegates provide a detailed insight of the situation in Xinjiang | (2019)
- The Xinjiang Atrocity Propaganda Blitz | Nia Frome (2021)
- Xinjiang: A Report and Resource Compilation | Qiao Collective (2021)
- Xinjiang: Understanding Complexity, Building Peace | International Diplomatic Institute (2021)
- Fight against Terrorism and Extremism in Xinjiang: Truth and Facts | Information Office of the People’s Government of Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (2022)
Social Media Resources, Threads, and Masterposts:
- Twitter thread about the WUC | shaedon sharpe’s rifles via Twitter (2021) [Archive]
- List of fact checks | 8Bitsblu via r/communism (2020) [Archive]
- r/Sino wiki entry | FeatsOverComments via r/sino (2020)
you can call it a genocide, sure.
it is a cultural genocide in any case, according to the people who live there. The fear of the consequences for their family keep them from speaking out publicly.
that’s a good point, thanks
according to the people who live there.
Can you find one who says that and had never been paid to do so?
Podcasts? You link to podcasts? You have got me absolutely fucked up if you think I am going to listen to podcasts from the fucking Economist.
no worries, those are the answers to your questions if you get curious.
uyghurs on the ground and all that.
So you’re telling me you can’t provide any names here, I have to damage my psyche listening to an extremely shitty publication’s awful talk radio turned podcast? There’s never been another article written about this extremely serious, definitely not entirely fabricated fantasy of the CIA and State Department? Hey did you know Democrats are bad? Unfortunately the only way for me to provide you with that information is you’re gonna have to watch twelve hours of Fox news and get back to me.
So you’ve got nothing, unsurprising
They interviewed people affiliated with US state-funded propaganda groups who dole out money to exactly such folks. Some live in Waahington, DC, which is a bit on the nose, but I suppose this helps them act as props near tourist areas for poorly-attended protests.
I have a first-hand source that contradicts yours:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1po9oTVtYw
Here are some more these are video and written testimonies that contradict what your sources are saying. These have first and last names as well as the location from which they are interviewed and as such are much more comprehensive and reliable than yours. Care to offer anything else?
that doesn’t seem to contradict anything from my comments.
what do you mean?
You clearly didn’t watch it, I listened to the podcasts and came to the same conclusion as Babs and Hestia. The sources I linked are citizens that are clearly stating there is no cultural genocide.
Hey for anyone looking for the sources, I checked these podcasts. They are anonymous, first-name-only sources, of course.
the economist
aaahahahahahahaha
Wrong and dumb
At the slightest resistance, people who push Uighur genocide propaganda will immediately retreat to weaker claims that are harder to argue. OK, it’s not genocide, it’s something called cultural genocide, that doesn’t actually kill a bunch of people. OK, maybe there’s no evidence of that, either, but surely there are human rights abuses. They still don’t provide much evidence of those, and the accusations start to sound like the sorts of issues that happen everywhere people are charged with crimes and taken into custody.
Contrast this with the genocide in Palestine. There is no shortage of evidence for it, and no one who understands what’s going on will hem and haw their own argument down to “well come on, I’m sure some people are taken into custody without an adequate amount of due process.”
At the slightest resistance, people who push Uighur genocide propaganda will immediately retreat to weaker claims that are harder to argue.
it’s much easier to get pictures of a person being killed then rights being violated, especially in a country where those rights are so restricted or functionally non-existent in the first place.
the conviction rate is over 99% in China, for example. Even if you go through “due process” in China, you probably don’t enjoy due process as someone who doesn’t live in China understands it.
the conviction rate is over 99% in China
Let’s start with a source on this one.
Note also that in the U.S., 90%+ conviction rates are common for federal charges. Are U.S. federal courts a sham? If someone actually committed a crime and you put together a ton of evidence very neatly, you can give them all the due process in the world and they would still wind up convicted of that crime.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate
I just linked the first source, but the 99% conviction rate is a very common statistic provided by the supreme people’s court of China.
1.2 million tried, 1039 found not guilty according to the court.
“Are U.S. federal courts a sham?”
Yes. pretty clearly. in many senses of the word “sham”.
the 99% conviction rate is a very common statistic provided by the supreme people’s court of China
“This is so common, it’s everywhere, everyone knows it, it’s so easy to find, but I’m going to link to fucking Wikipedia instead so I can use it to launder a number from some bullshit NGO”
“Are U.S. federal courts a sham?”
How bad does your conviction rate need to be for you to accept that a judicial system has fair trials? Do you want police and prosecutors pursuing a bunch of cases they can’t adequately prove?
So your source is a Wikipedia article that cites “Safeguard Defenders”, a western anti-china NGO?
It’s much easier to make shit up than provide actual evidence, as you clearly already know
the conviction rate is over 99% in China, for example
Source?
The supreme People’s Court of China
That’s a Wikipedia article that cites a western anti-china NGO. Please don’t lie about your sources.
Oh great. “I lack any remotely credible evidence of my accusation, but that’s because the government has erased all evidence”.
Eqyivalent to: “I lack any remotely credible evidence that the Earth is flat, just as can be expected after the insidious NASA destroyed all evidence”.
And the Lesson we see here is : "Crazy- people-online belive all sorts of stuff , they should not be takeen to seriously , because they fundamentaly are NOT serious.
What’s the source of those images?
Randomly posting images of text proves jack shit about anything.
Randomly posting images of a prison proves jack shit about anything.
That’s fair.
I guess they cancel each other out.
The text is from Masses, Elites, and Rebels: The Theory of “Brainwashing” by Roderic Day.
Thank you for providing a source. I am not who you were replying too, but this exchange is a funny little microcosm of the conversation.
I doubt many will read the full piece, I doubt many know Roderic Day, and the text shown was fully opinion. There were not detailed citations in the text that would require checking, this wasn’t a study, there is basically nothing to the point outside the text itself, except the notoriety of the author, but the knee-jerk reaction seems to be to ask for a source. Would it change their opinion if it was written in the comment itself? Does it make it more legitimate if had been a published book? What level publisher does it require to make the case meaningful? Would it suddenly be a worthwhile point if this was taken from a New York Times op-ed?
To restate the point of the text, to a degree there is no reason to expect them to study the source of the quote, because they wield “Source?” like a club.
Yep, I agree, it was very strange. The essay segment is an explanation for why people hold the opinions they have and act the way they do, not a thorough examination of Xinjiang.
hey, believe what you want.
You should try believing what’s verifiably true
The Bee does waste to much time , trying to explain to the Fly ; that Flowers are better then Shit.
Nah, you don’t seem to be having much fun with it
I’m having a blast! I’m providing simple sources and facts. I’m kind of in my element.
Simple yes, facts lol no you aren’t
America has the largest prison population on the planet, with slave labor,removed, torture, inadequate medical care, and inhumane conditions. That’s the America liberals don’t want you to see.
liberals are complaining about those exact problems and trying to reform the American prison system.
Sanders has a bill to ban for-profit prisons, for example. do you mean conservatives?
.
No, I mean liberals, that’s why I typed liberals.
You’re right, sometimes the liberals complain about it. But who was their last president? The guy who wrote the 94 crime bill and the Patriot act. Who was their last presidential candidate (hand picked, no primary)? A career prosecutor, attorney general, and self described “top cop” of California who famously kept people in prison past their release date, among other unforgivably evil shit.
Hey remind me, is Bernie Sanders a Democrat? What happened when he ran in the presidential primary, did the Democrats rally behind him and his prison reform, or did they vilify him and use backdoor tricks to tank his two attempts?
Yes, Sanders is a Democrat.
in the last presidential primary, he was basically sidelined from becoming the president because he was too cool.
LMAO Sanders is an Independent… I see you’re very engaged politically.
Wrong. Bernie is Independent. The Democrats opposed him and his policies. Were there other liberals you were referring to or did your entire disagreement just evaporate?
Bernie sanders is not a Democrat he’s an independant.
That’s what the other person means liberals suck, berries slightly better but he’s not a Democrat.
The West is to be judged by its intentions, its antagonists are to be judged by their actions.
its antagonists are to be judged by their actions.
Nah, they’re judged by what our propaganda says their intentions are.
Yeah, hundreds of millions are out of poverty, but at what cost?
you don’t feel like you’re getting an incomplete picture of the world judging countries that way?
They were describing your process for judging countries, not endorsing it, lol.
no wonder they’re so confused, haha.
you’re all making a lot of leaps.
I’m not confused. I’m also not making a leap.
No, u
@PKMKII@hexbear.net is describing the standard judgement process of liberals. Western countries are typically judged on their stated intentions, eg Biden claiming to have done everything he could to get a ceasefire in Gaza, while actually supplying Israel with everything they needed.
Liberals, however, do not extend such courtesy to non-Western countries, and moreover tend to accept the narrative most pushed in the media about such countries despite distorting the quantity and quality of events.
oh, well…that’s not what’s happening here. I try not to conflate everything with one thing.
The leaps these commenters make are broad.
It seems to me that you’re guilty of being evasive, like when I asked you to clearly state your position on the quantity and quality of the re-education camps in Xinjiang. You’re just wasting your own time more than anything, by lacking a firm and coherent stance and sources to support your argument, you weaken every statement you make.
It is exactly what you did though.
Lmao. Oh boy can’t wait until this bill is definitely passed in the next majority dem government. Fucking rube.
lol. lmao. Liberals support the current Amerikkkan prison system at least implicitly: the Democrats’ last presidential candidate was
, after all, and she was an integral part of that system. Sanders? The genocide apologist who recently said Trump’s immigration plans had some good points?nope, different Sanders. and Sanders
No, it’s the same one, how many Sandereses are there in Amerikkkan politics anyway?
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) said there is one thing he agreed with President Trump about: curbing illegal immigration and the flow of fentanyl into the country. Sanders joined ABC News’s “This Week,” where host Jonathan Karl asked if there was anything Trump has done right. “I think cracking down on fentanyl, making sure our borders are stronger,” Sanders replied. “Look, nobody thinks illegal immigration is appropriate, and I happen to think we need comprehensive immigration reform, but I don’t think it’s appropriate for people to be coming across the border illegally.”
Your liberal hero.
Look, nobody thinks illegal immigration is appropriate
Not only it’s appropriate, it’s extremely cool and good. Didn’t Bernie sing This Land is Your Land that one time? Poser ass removed
The US Media has done such a wonderful job cooping the political category of “Liberal” such that it has almost no meaning. Liberal in this context, means, a person with a world view centered around “Liberalism”, which, above all other things, promotes and defends the concepts of Private Property (not to be confused with personal property). The banning of for-profit prisons, aka private prisons, does not align with this dominate world view within the American political system. The Democrats will align with the Republicans and block Sander’s bill from gaining any momentum.
If sanders really wanted to deal a blow to the American prison system, he would be putting forth a motion to amend the constitution and remove slavery as a constitutionally protected form of punishment for criminals.
Yes, China is evil because you found the picture of a prisioner. The US imprisions 6 times as many people per capita, and has widespread slave prison labor, but China is the threat.
Removed by mod
The Xinjiang they don’t want you to see is someone being walked in cuffs?
Looks like a jail or prison of some sort, they have those in every country on earth so idk why you think they would care particularly who sees it, also no way for us to know where the pic was actually taken so kinda pointless for you to post it like this
this is one of the Xinjiang “reeducation” camps.
Cool story
not really, they’re indefinite detainees whose families are scared for them.
like 1 in 6 people in the region.
it’s not very cool.
Anything’s possible when you make shit up
where did you get this 1 in 6 number?
official numbers from China have half a million detainees listed, until they stopped publishing detainee information; most estimates agree that the number of uyghur detainees in total is closer to 2 million.
12 million uyghyrs / 2 million uyghur detainees, ~1 in 6 uyghurs have been or are still detained.
Close to everyone here has been asking you for sources. If you’re going to provide numbers, you need to provide sources. People like @RedWizard@hexbear.net have given you large, well-sourced and thoroughly documented comments, if you respond with “sources” like “it’s widely known” people are going to rightfully dismiss your claims.
official numbers from China have half a million detainees listed
Source?
most estimates agree that the number of uyghur detainees in total is closer to 2 million.
Source?
They’re saying you need to provide evidence of that claim. All you have here is a photo of a guy in custody.
people got so excited that the sources are kind of spread out in all of their comments by this point.
that photo isn’t all of the sources I’ve listed, it’s just the first piece of evidence in this thread.
The only source for your propaganda in this entire thread is a podcast from the Economist.
I like to travel, learn and tell stories.
Travel podcast here
New episodes Wednesdays and Saturdays.
Q&A community: https://crazypeople.online/c/bitofarambler
Any travel questions are welcome, they don’t have to be podcast-related
FAQ
how do you travel long-term?
The cost of living in most countries is around $500 USD a month for transportation, rent, utilities and food altogether; teaching English pays $2000 USD a month with zero qualifications or experience.
every month I taught English, I had a few exrra months of my cost of living.
I taught English for about 7 years.
as long as you’re making more than 500 USD a month remotely in any job, you can travel long-term.
if you want to backpack, CoL shoots down to $200 a month real quick.
You know, you could just travel to Xinjiang and see it for yourself, right? You can very likely travel there without a visa even.
Starting December 2024, transit travelers from 54 countries can stay for up to 10 days without a visa. Better yet, visitors from France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and several Asian countries enjoy 30-day visa-free stays through 2025.
US, UK, and Canadian passport holders can visit for 6 days visa-free.
I lived in China for a while, i have uyghur friends.
That’s where most of my info about xinjiang comes from.
but I’d rather share independently verified rather than anecdotal information.
but I’d rather share independently verified rather than anecdotal information.
Correction, you’d rather link to podcasts instead of providing actual information
I prefer independently verified information myself.
I have independently verified that you’re a clown.
that isn’t what verified means.
you’re calling names.
Oh no, you’re on to me
Yes it is, I’ve independently verified it
Anything’s possible when you make shit up
What do you propose as the proper way for China to deal with violent religious reactionaries? Maybe they should’ve focused more energy on a decades long occupation of Afghanistan that accomplished literally nothing except a vast amount of grifting.
The decades-long occupation pretty much never works and just engenders more revolution, so I wouldn’t recommend that route.
also, the “violent religious reactionaries” is a bit of a leap from the sheer volume of detainees.
I think the violent ones should be dealt with much differently than the non-violent activists, but they are apparently treated the same.
The sheer volume being how many?
absolute minimum is around half a million detainee in total (ccp numbers until 2019), and most outside estimates place the number closer to 1-2 million uyghur detainees.
Bear in mind that this is not some static equation, mass detainment started almost 10 years ago at this point and has been occurring for a decade. with detainment ongoing and the CCP long having stopped sharing specific information, it’s going to be hard to get specific numbers past 2019(the half a million number) for years to come.
And where did you get those numbers?
with detainment ongoing and the CCP long having stopped sharing specific information,
Source?
most outside estimates place the number closer to 1-2 million uyghur detainees.
Source?
it’s going to be hard to get specific numbers past 2019(the half a million number) for years to come.
Where did you get the half a million number?
it’s going to be hard to get specific numbers past 2019
You were able to assert “absolute minimum is around half a million” though, so you must have been able to get those specific numbers somewhere. Where did you get them?
The xinjiang high people’s protectorate
Source that that’s even a thing that exists?
Source that the xinjiang high people’s protectorate made all of those claims?
ccp numbers until 2019
You keep dropping numbers like this without sourcing them.
you’ll have to look through the other comments for the sources, I’ve had to drop that same source like four times now.
The sheer volume being how many?
The decades-long occupatio
Wdym occupation. Xinjiang (formerly Xiyu) has been incorporated territory of the PRC since its foundation, and part of China since (conservatively) the Tang dynasty.Edit: i misunderstood the comment
that commenter was referencing Afghanistan, not xinjiang.
I see, thanks for clarification . I rilly should be sleeping
Ok, so the violent religious reactionaries needed to be dealt with, but with a more nuanced approach. What should it be? What would be faster and gentler, but also effective?
lol
lmao, even
”They” in the title isn’t referring to China.
The “They” is those who are anti-China who politicize views/definitions of genocide. It is a dangerous rule for lemmy subs to have “never question genocide propaganda”. Some CIA/nazi supporting subs/posters will make the case that showing Xinjiang normalcy is Chinese propaganda.
about 1 in 6 uyghurs are or have been detained in prison camps.
this video isn’t showing “xinjiang normalcy”.
Source?
yes.
Please provide it.
Anything’s possible when you make shit up
